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numerator
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Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 9:53 am

I read a great extract last night and it really made me think back to my own early schooling and the nature of environmentalism. This piece is fairly one sided but I think it's a great read and I think it brings up an interesting debate.

Excerpt from
The Armchair Economist: Economics & Everyday Life
by Steven E. Landsburg
(pp. 223-231)

At the age of four, my daughter earned her second diploma. When she was two, she graduated with the highest possible honors from the Toddler Room at her nursery school in Colorado. Two years later she graduated from the preschool of the Jewish Community Center, where she matriculated on our return to New York State.

At the graduation ceremony, titled Friends of the Earth, I was lectured by four- and five-year-olds on the importance of safe energy sources, mass transportation, and recycling. The recurring mantra was "With privilege comes responsibility" as in "With the privilege of living on this planet comes the responsibility to care for it." Of course, Thomas Jefferson thought that life on this planet was more an inalienable right than a privilege, but then he had never been to preschool.

I'd heard some of this from my daughter before and had gotten used to the idea that she needed a little deprogramming from time to time. But as I listened to the rote repetition of a political agenda from children not old enough to read, I decided it was time for a word with the teacher. She wanted to know which specific points in the catechism I found objectionable. I declined to answer. As environmentalism becomes increasingly like an intrusive state religion, we dissenters become increasingly prickly about suggestions that we suffer from some kind of aberration.

The naive environmentalism of my daughter's preschool is a force-fed potpourri of myth, superstition, and ritual that has much in common with the least reputable varieties of religious Fundamentalism. The antidote to bad religion is good science. The antidote to astrology is the scientific method, the antidote to naive creationism is evolutionary biology, and the antidote to naive environmentalism is economics.

Economics is the science of competing preferences. Environmentalism goes beyond science when it elevates matters of preference to matters of morality. A proposal to pave a wilderness and put up a parking lot is an occasion for conflict between those who prefer wilderness and those who prefer convenient parking. In the ensuing struggle, each side attempts to impose its preferences by manipulating the political and economic systems. Because one side must win and one side must lose, the battle is hard-fought and sometimes bitter. All of this is to be expected.

But in the 25 years since the first Earth Day, a new and ugly element has emerged in the form of one side's conviction that its preferences are Right and the other side's are Wrong. The science of economics shuns such moral posturing; the religion of environmentalism embraces it.

Economics forces us to confront a fundamental symmetry. The conflict arises because each side wants to allocate the same resource in a different way. Jack wants his woodland at the expense of Jill's parking space and Jill wants her parking space at the expense of Jack's woodland. That formulation is morally neutral and should serve as a warning against assigning exalted moral status to either Jack or Jill.

The symmetries run deeper. Environmentalists claim that wilderness should take precedence over parking because a decision to pave is "irrevocable." Of course they are right, but they overlook the fact that a decision not to pave is equally irrevocable. Unless we pave today, my opportunity to park tomorrow is lost as irretrievably as tomorrow itself will be lost. The ability to park in a more distant future might be a quite inadequate substitute for that lost opportunity.

A variation on the environmentalist theme is that we owe the wilderness option not to ourselves but to future generations. But do we have any reason to think that future generations will prefer inheriting the wilderness to inheriting the profits from the parking lot? That is one of the first questions that would be raised in any honest scientific inquiry.*

Another variation is that the parking lot's developer is motivated by profits, not preferences. To this there are two replies. First, the developer's profits are generated by his customers' preferences; the ultimate conflict is not with the developer but with those who prefer to park. Second, the implication of the argument is that a preference for a profit is somehow morally inferior to a preference for a wilderness, which is just the sort of posturing that the argument was designed to avoid.

It seems to me that the "irrevocability" argument, the "future generations" argument, and the "preferences not profits" argument all rely on false distinctions that wither before honest scrutiny. Why, then, do some environmentalists repeat these arguments? Perhaps honest scrutiny is simply not a part of their agenda. In many cases, they begin with the postulate that they hold the moral high ground, and conclude that they are thereby licensed to disseminate intellectually dishonest propaganda as long as it serves the higher purpose of winning converts to the cause.


The hallmark of science is a commitment to follow arguments to their logical conclusions; the hallmark of certain kinds of religion is a slick appeal to logic followed by a hasty retreat if it points in an unexpected direction. Environmentalists can quote reams of statistics on the importance of trees and then jump to the conclusion that recycling paper is a good idea. But the opposite conclusion makes equal sense. I am sure that if we found a way to recycle beef, the population of cattle would go down, not up. If you want ranchers to keep a lot of cattle, you should eat a lot of beef. Recycling paper eliminates the incentive for paper companies to plant more trees and can cause forests to shrink. If you want large forests, your best strategy might be to use paper as wastefully as possible — or lobby for subsidies to the logging industry. Mention this to an environmentalist. My own experience is that you will be met with some equivalent of the beatific smile of a door-to-door evangelist stumped by an unexpected challenge, but secure in his grasp of Divine Revelation.

This suggests that environmentalists — at least the ones I have met — have no real interest in maintaining the tree population. If they did, they would seriously inquire into the long-term effects of recycling. I suspect that they don't want to do that because their real concern is with the ritual of recycling itself, not with its consequences. The underlying need to sacrifice, and to compel others to sacrifice, is a fundamentally religious impulse.

Environmentalists call on us to ban carcinogenic pesticides. They choose to overlook the consequence that when pesticides are banned, fruits and vegetables become more expensive, people eat fewer of them, and cancer rates consequently rise.* If they really wanted to reduce cancer rates, they would weigh this effect in the balance.

Environmentalism has its apocalyptic side. Species extinctions, we are told, have consequences that are entirely unpredictable, making them too dangerous to risk. But unpredictability cuts both ways. One lesson of economics is that the less we know, the more useful it is to experiment. If we are completely ignorant about the effects of extinction, we can pick up a lot of valuable knowledge by wiping out a few species to see what happens. I doubt that scientists really are completely ignorant in this area; what interests me is the environmentalists' willingness to plead complete ignorance when it suits their purposes and to retreat when confronted with an unexpected consequences of their own position.

In October 1992 an entirely new species of monkey was discovered in the Amazon rain forest and touted in the news media as a case study in why the rain forests must be preserved. My own response was rather in the opposite direction. I lived a long time without knowing about this monkey and never missed it. Its discovery didn't enrich my life, and if it had gone extinct without ever being discovered, I doubt that I would have missed very much.

There are other species I care more about, maybe because I have fond memories of them from the zoo or from childhood storybooks. Lions, for example. I would be sorry to see lions disappear, to the point where I might be willing to pay up to about $50 a year to preserve them. I don't think I'd pay much more than that. If lions mean less to you than they do to me, I accept our difference and will not condemn you as a sinner. If they mean more to you than to me, I hope you will extend the same courtesy.

In the current political climate, it is frequently taken as an axiom that the U.S. government should concern itself with the welfare of Americans first; it is also frequently taken as an axiom that air pollution is always and everywhere a bad thing. You might, then, have expected a general chorus of approval when the chief economist of the World Bank suggested that it might be a good thing to relocate high-pollution industries to Third World countries. To most economists, this is a self-evident opportunity to make not just Americans but everybody better off. People in wealthy countries can afford to sacrifice some income for the luxury of cleaner air; people in poorer countries are happy to breathe inferior air in exchange for the opportunity to improve their incomes. But when the bank economist's observation was leaked to the media, parts of the environmental community went ballistic. To them, pollution is a form of sin. They seek not to improve our welfare but to save our souls.

There is a pattern here. Suggesting an actual solution to an environmental problem is a poor way to impress an environmentalist, unless your solution happens to feed his sense of moral superiority. Subsidies to logging, the use of pesticides, planned extinctions, and exporting pollution to Mexico are outside the catechism; subsidies to mass transportation, the use of catalytic converters, planned fuel economy standards, adn exporting industry from the Pacific Northwest are part of the infallible doctrine. Solutions seem to fall into one category or the other not according to their actual utility but according to their consistency with environmentalist dogma.


In the last weeks of the 1992 presidential campaign, George Bush, running as the candidate of less intrusive government, signed with great fanfare a bill dictating the kind of showerhead you will be permitted to buy. The American Civil Liberties Union took no position on the issue. I conjecture that if the bill had specified allowable prayerbooks instead of allowable showerheads, then even the malleable Mr. Bush might have balked — and if he hadn't, we would have heard something from the ACLU. But nothing in the science of economics suggests any fundamental difference between a preference for the Book of Common Prayer and a preference for a powerful shower spray. Quite the contrary; the economic way of thinking forces us to recognize that there is no fundamental difference.

The proponents of showerhead legislation argued that a law against extravagant showers is more like a law against littering than like a law against practicing a minority religion — it is designed to prevent selfish individuals from imposing real costs on others. If that was the argument that motivated Mr. Bush, then — not for the first time in his life — he had fallen prey to bad economics.

There are good economic reasons to outlaw littering and other impositions (though even this can be overdone — walking into a crowded supermarket is an imposition on all the other shoppers, but few of us believe it should be outlawed). But in most parts of the United States, water use is not an imposition for the simple reason that you pay for water. It is true that your luxuriant shower hurts other buyers by driving up the price of water but equally true that your shower helps sellers by exactly the same amount that it hurts buyers. You would want to limit water usage only if you cared more about buyers than sellers — in which case there are equally good arguments for limiting the consumption of everything — including energy-efficient showerheads.

Like other coercive ideologies, environmentalism targets children specifically. After my daughter progressed from preschool to kindergarten, her teachers taught her to conserve resources by rinsing out her paper cup instead of discarding it. I explained to her that time is also a valuable resource, and it might be worth sacrificing some cups to save some time. Her teachers taught her that mass transportation is good because it saves energy. I explained to her that it might be worth sacrificing some energy in exchange for the comfort of a private car. Her teachers taught her to recycle paper so that wilderness is not converted to landfill space. I explained to her that it might be worth sacrificing some wilderness in exchange for the luxury of not having to sort your trash. In each case, her five-year-old mind had no difficulty grasping the point. I fear that after a few more years of indoctrination, she will be as uncomprehending as her teachers.

In their assault on the minds of children, the most reprehensible tactic of environmental extremists is to recast every challenge to their orthodoxy as a battle between Good and Evil. The Saturday morning cartoon shows depict wicked polluters who pollute for the sake of polluting, not because polluting is a necessary byproduct of some useful activity. That perpetuates a damnable lie. American political tradition does not look kindly on those who advance their agendas by smearing the character of their opponents. That tradition should be upheld with singular urgency when the intended audience consists of children. At long last, have the environmentalists no decency?


Economics in the narrowest sense is a science free of values. But economics is also a way of thinking, with an influence on its practitioners that transcends the demands of formal logic. With the diversity of human interests as its subject matter, the discipline of economics is fertile ground for the growth of values like tolerance and pluralism.

In my experience, economists are extraordinary in their openness to alternative preferences, life-styles, and opinions. Judgmental clichés like "the work ethic" and the "virtue of thrift" are utterly foreign to the vocabulary of economics. Our job is to understand human behavior, and understanding is not far distant from respect.

Following our graduation day confrontation, I sent my daughter's teacher a letter explaining why I had declined her invitation to engage in theological debate. Some of the opinions in that letter are more personal than professional. But the letter is above all a plea for the level of tolerance that economists routinely grant and expect in return. Therefore I will indulge myself as an example of how the economic way of thinking has shaped one economist's thoughts.


Dear Rebecca:
When we lived in Colorado, Cayley was the only Jewish child in her class. There were also a few Moslems. Occasionally, and especially around Christmas time, the teachers forgot about this diversity and made remarks that were appropriate only for the Christian children. These remarks came rarely, and were easily counteracted at home with explanations that different people believe different things, so we chose not to say anything at first. We changed our minds when we overheard a teacher telling a group of children that if Santa didn't come to your house, it meant you were a very bad child; this was within earshot of an Islamic child who certainly was not going to get a visit from Santa. At that point, we decided to share our concerns with the teachers. They were genuinely apologetic and there were no more incidents. I have no doubt that the teachers were good and honest people who had no intent to indoctrinate, only a certain naïveté derived from a provincial upbringing.

Perhaps that same sort of honest naïveté is what underlies the problems we've had at the JCC this year. Just as Cayley's teachers in Colorado were honestly oblivious to the fact that there is diversity in religion, it may be that her teachers at the JCC have been honestly oblivious that there is diversity in politics.

Let me then make that diversity clear. We are not environmentalists. We ardently oppose environmentalists. We consider environmentalism a form of mass hysteria akin to Islamic fundamentalism or the War on Drugs. We do not recycle. We teach our daughter not to recycle. We teach her that people who try to convince her to recycle, or who try to force her to recycle, are intruding on her rights.

The preceding paragraph is intended to serve the same purpose as announcing to Cayley's Colorado teachers that we are not Christians. Some of them had never been aware of knowing anybody who was not a Christian, but they adjusted pretty quickly.

Once the Colorado teachers understood that we and a few other families did not subscribe to the beliefs that they were propagating, they instantly apologized and stopped. Nobody asked me what exactly it was about Christianity that I disagreed with; they simply recognized that they were unlikely to change our views on the subject, and certainly had no business inculcating our child with opposite views.

I contrast this with your reaction when I confronted you at the preschool graduation. You wanted to know my specific disagreements with what you had taught my child to say. I reject your right to ask that question. The entire program of environmentalism is as foreign to us as the doctrine of Christianity. I was not about to engage in detailed theological debate with Cayley's Colorado teachers and they would not have had the audacity to ask me to. I simply asked them to lay off the subject completely, they recognized the legitimacy of the request, and the subject was closed.

I view the current situation as far more serious than what we encountered in Colorado for several reasons. First, in Colorado we were dealing with a few isolated remarks here and there, whereas at the JCC we have been dealing with a systematic attempt to inculcate a doctrine and to quite literally put words in children's mouths. Second, I do not sense on your part any acknowledgment that there may be people in the world who do not share your views. Third, I am frankly a lot more worried about my daughter's becoming an environmentalist than about her becoming a Christian. Fourth, we face no current threat of having Christianity imposed on us by petty tyrants; the same can not be said of environmentalism. My county government never tried to send me a New Testament, but it did send me a recycling bin.

Although I have vowed not to get into a discussion on the issues, let me respond to the one question you seemed to think was very important in our discussion: Do I agree that with privilege comes responsibility? The answer is no. I believe that responsibilities arise when one undertakes them voluntarily. I also believe that in the absence of explicit contracts, people who lecture other people on their "responsibilities" are almost always up to no good. I tell my daughter to be wary of such people — even when they are preschool teachers who have otherwise earned a lot of love.

Sincerely,

Steven Landsburg




Any thoughts
[quote author=David Wong link=topic=35510.msg1658551#msg1658551 date=1285309208]
It's like asking a house painter if he paints the whole house, or just the parts he can reach from the ground.
[/quote]

Johnny Roastbeef
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 11:47 am

I disagree on several of his fundamental tenets.  The problem is that he's trying to create a false choice.  Environmentalism vs. economics.  But the fact is, economics doesn't universally oppose environmentalism.  Rather than being a science free of values as he puts it, economics is a science that absolutely depends on values.  It's a matter of how you choose to assign value to the intangibles like the ability to take a walk through a forest of trees and drink clean water free of toxic waste.  While this guy has made his personal perception on the value of those factors known, I think that it's pretty clear that his views aren't universal, or even the norm.  As such, economic analysis conducted by someone who did assign value to those environmentally friendly ideas would "scientifically" reach different conclusions than he.

I can somewhat sympathize with his underlying notion that we should consider outcomes when it comes to environmentalism, not jumping at shadows and making choices that actually have the impact that we want.  But his somewhat snide tone suggesting that environmentalism is, and is destined to, fail at success in these areas is ridiculous.  In fact, there's science dedicated to it. A science which incidentally is much more scientific than the science of economics, while we're on the LOL SCIENCE VS RELIGION train.

In summary, this dude has an axe to grind with no actual scientific basis for it.  His personal beliefs on the matter are as "religious" as those he decries in the environmentalists.  And frankly, his closed-mindedness and self-superiority are more offensive than any amount of misguided environmental advocacy.

Saint Augustine
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 5:16 pm

His main argument, as far as I see it, is that environmentalists are making moral issues out of what are actually economic issues, and using their viewpoint as a trump card over any reasonable objection.  I think it's a valid argument.  Unfortunately, the way he's presenting it is in a snidely superior tone, labeling all environmentalists as members of an unthinking horde.

Regarding the arguments about recycling, read this, Herodotus.  The whole point here is that recycling looks and sounds like a good idea.  After all, who doesn't want to get more use out of the things we produce.  Unfortunately, the costs (in both money and pollution) from sorting, transporting and the actual recycling process are not as closely examined as they should be, and there is a very strong indication that on the whole recycling costs us.

This is the kind of analysis that is often lacking in issues that environmentalists (as the extract defines them) are concerned about.  We--and I like to think of myself as being an environmentalist--take an idea that looks and sounds good at first blush, and without any further analysis conclude that it is the right thing to do.  What we should be doing, however, is taking a more reserved and skeptical approach to make sure that what we're doing is actually achieving its stated goals.

edit: fixed the link.
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David Wong
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 5:52 pm

Watching the flamebait in this thread is going to be tough, because the quoted text is itself flamebait (I've already deleted a post that declared that environmentalists "want to live in mud huts.")

As far as the OP goes, I've noticed this trend recently where people will insult a movement or school of thought by referring to it as "religious dogma". It becomes a way to shut off debate; I don't need to actually talk about the human costs of environmentally damaging yet profitable practices if I can paint all of the people opposed to it as nutjobs and zealots.

The best way it was explained to me is that the entire achilles heel of the free market is the inability to factor in environmental costs into the pricing of the final product.

As in, a hypothetical tire company selling tires in America can open a factory in Vietnam. It can sell tires based purely on labor costs, materials, advertising, etc, without ever having to factor in the "cost" of the third-world forest it destroyed or the river it poisoned.

In such a hypothetical there are actual human costs there, lost livelihoods, displaced families, sickened children. But they're impossible to calculate and getting the party who caused the destruction to make the proper restitution is equally impossible. That's where the market fails.

In a perfect market, those costs would be passed onto the company, and then the consumer. When faced with these extra costs, the consumer would stop buying the tires, and the company would be forced to stop its destructive practices or go bankrupt. The market would have worked. But there is such a disconnect between the manufacturing of the tires and the end user on the other side of the planet, and so many legal and financial obstacles between the affected Vietnamese and restitution, that this malfunction is allowed to continue.

That is, until a government steps in and forces said company (and all companies) to change their practices as to not cause these damages in the first place. It's the only way to restore equity to the system. It's yet another occasion where external regulation actually brings the free market closer to the ideal than the market does on its own (anti-monopoly legislation is another example).

I am Cracked Executive Editor David Wong, my new novel, WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST READ, is on shelves now.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 6:09 pm

St. Augustine, the problem with that link is that it's a perfect example of what Wong is talking about.  They just go on and on about how financially, recycling doesn't make any sense.  But it's an example of short term thinking.  The economics of the problem don't tell the story because they don't factor in external costs involved.  When you're dealing with unsustainable resources the markets don't always reflect the upcoming shortages, whereas by recycling (even at a cost) allows us to prolong the time before we reach the limit.

Again I agree completely that we should be wise and thoughtful about the environmentally motivated changes that we make, and that we should make sure that we're doing good overall.  But making the point on the basis that it costs less money is missing the point.  It's always cheaper in the short term to dispose of our nuclear waste in the ocean, but in the long term we will do a ton of environmental damage by doing so.  Without an external force resolving some of those long term externalities into the economic analysis (much as Dave said), the markets alone will never lead us to the true "efficient" solution.

Saint Augustine
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 7:11 pm

On the other hand, though, the positive externalities of increased production are also often overlooked.  Granted, the large majority of industries don't really display positive economic externalities based on increases in production and decreases in aggregate usage because they're not renewable.  However, take for example the paper industry.  Given the regulations in place that require companies to plant trees to replace what they cut down, they will end up planting more trees if demand for paper products increases.  And, yes, this only works because of government regulations that force the paper producing firms to plant the trees in the first place.  That said, a lot of people are unaware of things like this because of the seemingly dogmatic assumption that recycling everything is good.

Also, I think a lot of the problem is when people have a basic understanding of economics and try to apply that to their own decisions as a consumer and voter.  The idea that the free market will solve everything is unfortunately premised on some very strong assumptions (e.g. rational actors, perfect information, etc.) which causes actual markets to be significantly different from what we read about in textbooks.  On a personal level, I got my BS in Economics about a year ago, and as soon we hit the 400 level of coursework a lot of the things we learned at the lower levels was just too simple to be of much practical use.

So, in short, I'm mostly agreeing with you guys.  I think.
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Cobramaster
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 8:55 pm

In this modern era, since there have been some very very strong indications that industry has caused extensive yet mostly reversible damage to certain ecosystems, Industry has stepped in and found ways to both keep business running in a cost effective manner and maintain the environments that they effect, for the most part.  There are exceptions to this rule such as large scale mining operations that involve the destruction of entire mountains to get to the coal at the center.

Recycling while in theory and theory alone is a great idea the truth of the matter is it is far more expensive to be used more than its current levels, SOME plastics can be reshaped, and it is easy to supplement the wood pulp with paper in SOME applications, and glass can be recycled for less than the original cost of the product.  Metal is far more expensive and considering the most commonly recycled metals are aluminum and tin which are the most common metals on earth it has not caught on yet.

On the situation of maintaining the environment, no matter how prominent the organization no environmentalist group has had as much impact as the industries that require the environment to be healthy.  Wild fish species are on the rise populationally speaking not because of environmentalists but because the industry realized that they were about to bankrupt themselves by overfishing certain species. There are now more trees in many areas of North America than 100-150 years ago not because of environmentalists but because the loggers realized that they needed to stop the current practice or they would run out of buiness.  And for another example game animals in the world have rising populations not because of environmentalists but because lobbyists for hunting groups pushed for restrictions on the number of animals that could be taken by an individual in a single year, because it became hard to find the few deer turkey and other animals left in the wild.

So in summary it is not our choices made on the consumer level that have the control of the environment but the free market will come in and fix the situation when it realizes there is a problem that will hurt business.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 9:13 pm

Cobramaster wrote:
Wild fish species are on the rise populationally speaking not because of environmentalists but because the industry realized that they were about to bankrupt themselves by overfishing certain species.


Incorrect. Strict regulations are the only thing that has kept entire parts of the ocean being fished to nothing. The problem is that no one fishing boat is willing to bear the burden of cutting back (look up "tragedy of the commons" for a better explanation). Even now the industry fights limits and quotas tooth and nail. Through all of human history, we have over-drawn on resources when left without a government to give oversight and manage them.


There are now more trees in many areas of North America than 100-150 years ago not because of environmentalists but because the loggers realized that they needed to stop the current practice or they would run out of buiness. 


There are more trees, but not more forests. Forests are cut down, and animal habitats destroyed, so that trees can be "farmed" instead. Preservation of old-growth forests never came from the industry, but from outside.


So in summary it is not our choices made on the consumer level that have the control of the environment but the free market will come in and fix the situation when it realizes there is a problem that will hurt business.


You're dead wrong, and history proves it again and again. The oil companies waged a PR campaign against Global Warming even after their very own experts admitted it was happening. The reason is the CEO of GM and the shareholders need to see a profit NOW, regardless of what happens to the environment 30 years from now. The coal industry is pushing the "Clean coal" claims, even after expert after expert shows why it won't ever be feasible.

The rationale is always the same: "it's somebody else's problem." Let the other companies cut back and invest in expensive alternative technologies; we need to make a profit NOW. We need to get paychecks to our workers NOW. Let somebody else worry about that other stuff.

I'm not blaming capitalism, either. It's human nature. Google "trees on Easter Island." Find out why the trees vanished from there centuries ago. The dominant species of tree on the island became extinct, because humans cut them down. What did that last guy think, the guy cutting down the very last tree?

We know what he was thinking. "There are probably more trees on the other side of the island. The people over there are probably perserving them. It's somebody else's problem. With this one, I need to build a house."

Human history is that same story, told over and over... until a strong central authority comes along with the power to oversee the hunting, mining, harvesting, fishing etc and enforced regulation to make sure future generations would be able to do the same.
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JoeHooker127
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Thu May 14, 2009 10:55 pm

David Wong wrote:
You're dead wrong, and history proves it again and again. The oil companies waged a PR campaign against Global Warming even after their very own experts admitted it was happening. The reason is the CEO of GM and the shareholders need to see a profit NOW, regardless of what happens to the environment 30 years from now. The coal industry is pushing the "Clean coal" claims, even after expert after expert shows why it won't ever be feasible.

The rationale is always the same: "it's somebody else's problem." Let the other companies cut back and invest in expensive alternative technologies; we need to make a profit NOW. We need to get paychecks to our workers NOW. Let somebody else worry about that other stuff.


This is just dead on. The free market will never truly succeed because it is blatantly unsustainable. Oil is king, and when we run out of oil, it seems that the whole world will come to a screeching halt. Yes we WILL RUN OUT OF OIL. It is a guarentee. Just because YOU might not be alive to see it, doesnt mean yout children won't either. Until we find a sustainable source of energy (ie anything from the sun- solar, wind, hydro) that can be used for basically everything, our whole infrastructure is built on a giant timebomb.

Even our food system is based on oil. The making of chemical fertilizers, transporting of feed and fertilizer and of final product all requires oil. Organic farming is just as bad. Only a tiny percent of farmers today in America use whole ecosystems to grow food using cows and chickens and pigs and fields of grass of grain.

If we dont eventually turn to our environment, or find a way to build spaceships that can harvest asteroids and other planets (SPACE ELEVATOR!!!!) were are F***ED.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 1:53 am

JoeHooker127 wrote:
Oil is king, and when we run out of oil, it seems that the whole world will come to a screeching halt. Yes we WILL RUN OUT OF OIL. It is a guarentee. Just because YOU might not be alive to see it, doesnt mean yout children won't either. Until we find a sustainable source of energy (ie anything from the sun- solar, wind, hydro) that can be used for basically everything, our whole infrastructure is built on a giant timebomb.


We have sustainable sources of enery, in fact, we had for decades, and the means of using it too. Solar, wind and hydro energy was around for decades, and the means for extracting that energy also, but the biggest one of them all is geothermal energy, which is simply a source of unlimited, clean power. The only reason we still have to pay ridiculous power bills and inhale smoke from coal or gas plants and fear nuclear power is because it's profitable. A geothermal power plant costs a huge amount of money and won't turn much profit when people realize the energy from that plant is totally free. The same goes for solar plants, wind power and all form of hydro power (tidal, wave power). The only thing keeping us from going totally green is profit.

Yes, we will run out of oil sooner than we think. How fortunate, that we had the electric car for a decade, that was better in every way than the gas-guzzling SUVs. EnterGMs EV1. It used less power, had better acceleration and high-speed, it was totally quiet, had the most advanced technology built-in, required less maintenance and was cheaper in the long run, and produced absolutely no emissions whatsoever. But the project got nuked, because of oil interests. Figures.
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 4:15 am

numerator wrote:
In October 1992 an entirely new species of monkey was discovered in the Amazon rain forest and touted in the news media as a case study in why the rain forests must be preserved. My own response was rather in the opposite direction. I lived a long time without knowing about this monkey and never missed it. Its discovery didn't enrich my life, and if it had gone extinct without ever being discovered, I doubt that I would have missed very much.


Foolishness. An individual might not care about a species, and is not personally affected, but it's not about aesthetics, its about ecosystem effects. We shouldn't break things until we know better, because it tends to hurt us as a species.

David Wong
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 4:42 am

rblaa wrote:
numerator wrote:
In October 1992 an entirely new species of monkey was discovered in the Amazon rain forest and touted in the news media as a case study in why the rain forests must be preserved. My own response was rather in the opposite direction. I lived a long time without knowing about this monkey and never missed it. Its discovery didn't enrich my life, and if it had gone extinct without ever being discovered, I doubt that I would have missed very much.


Foolishness. An individual might not care about a species, and is not personally affected, but it's not about aesthetics, its about ecosystem effects. We shouldn't break things until we know better, because it tends to hurt us as a species.


That's like the classic stereotypical city dweller who says hunting is cruel because people should just get their meat at the grocery story instead of killing animals. It's easy for someone like the author to isolate himself, to pretend that his comfortable life in his apartment has no connection to the ecosystem as a whole. Who cares about the rivers? I get my water from my faucet. Who cares about global warming killing off plankton. I don't eat plankton! I eat fish, from Red Lobster. What can one possibly have to do with the other?!?!?

It's blissful ignorance.
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Saint Augustine
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 5:04 am

It's also a terrible argument, because he's missing the entire point of the discovery of the monkey.  The point here is that there is still a lot out there that we haven't discovered, some of which could be incredibly beneficial to us in areas like pharmaceutical research, and which obviously cannot be used if it's destroyed before we have a chance to study it.  The problem that arises is that we don't know if it's there or not, and trying to assign a value to things we haven't discovered yet is a fruitless exercise, so to throw this at the free market and say "you, go find us an efficient solution" is like asking a blind person to draw you a map and then treating what they drew as correct and accurate.

I'll admit now that I only read the first half dozen paragraphs or so of the extract, and figured I knew the direction he was taking it in.  After reading that bit about the monkey, though, I have to say this guy's oversimplifying some things that he really shouldn't be.
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 5:41 am

So have we arrived at the agreement that it's not environment vs economics at all, that it is in fact short term economic gain vs long term economic sustainability? That it's not about trying to restrict the markets, but to regulate them in the way that you regulate an engine to keep it from blowing apart?
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College Binary
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 6:44 am

David Wong wrote:
As far as the OP goes, I've noticed this trend recently where people will insult a movement or school of thought by referring to it as "religious dogma". It becomes a way to shut off debate; I don't need to actually talk about the human costs of environmentally damaging yet profitable practices if I can paint all of the people opposed to it as nutjobs and zealots.


I don't think it's flamebait to suggest that certain movements or ideologies can develop a quasi-religious atmosphere, nor do I think it's a tactic for shutting off debate. I think that pointing out examples of religious thinking is precisely a protest against the shutdown of debate or the conversion of scientific or political theories into dogmatic fundamentalism. It's easy for something like environmentalism (or nationalism, etc) to foster a religious mindset because we don't expect the religious mindset to exist in an ideology absent of deities.

Environmentalism, newly united as it is through the threat of global warming, has all the features of a religion. There's a heaven (harmonious and static wilderness unaffected by human activities), a hell (the smoldering death of a post-climate-change Earth), sin (human activities that damage nature), a Devil (ExxonMobil) and a God (The idea of nature itself, or Gaia) that will send us to either heaven or hell based on the weight of our sins. The only thing we need to take that and make it into a religion is to apply religious thinking to it. Make it dogma, shun new ideas, burn the heathens. That does happen, not for all environmentalists or probably not even the majority, but the media does like to foster it because the idea of a dogmatic environmentalism seems like something that can only help to clean up the planet in the long term. So we get something like Earth Day, which seems like a benign, cozy symbolic gesture but which I think has a disturbing layer of McCarthyism to it.

To compare environmentalism to religion isn't necessarily a tactic through which to dismiss it as nonsense. A Christian can be aware that he/she is a member of a religion and still believe that the religion is true. It's just calling a spade a spade.

The downside to religious thinking is that we shut down to new ideas. We suspect every bit of new science that deviates from the established dogma as being planted by oil companies. We have this thing now where we're calling the climate change critics "holocaust deniers" - these are no longer people who are suspicious of authority or like to challenge established ideas, or even people who just need more education, they are now black and white, directly, deliberately, evil. They are the same as Hitler-worshipping skinhead lynch mobs. That's something that religious fundamentalists do, see those who disagree with them as the absolute face of evil.

As far as the article is concerned, I think one of his biggest failings is that he's arguing a straw man. I think that even arguing the point that the extinct monkey might have been beneficial to science is missing what environmentalism is about. He attacks the argument that individual species extinctions are aesthetically bothersome - that killing a lion is a crime against man - but I think most environmentalists would actually argue that killing the lion is a crime against the lion.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 7:30 am

This is my first post. I should probably preface this by staying that I am a petroleum engineering student at the University of Oklahoma, which gives me a certain bias, but I also consider myself an environmentalist, and I am switching majors next semester to meteorology. I think that the original post was a gross oversimplification which paints all environmentalists as creepy grade school teachers who lecture kids about being nice to animals, but I really wanted to address this post here:

Playbahnosh wrote:We have sustainable sources of enery, in fact, we had for decades, and the means of using it too. Solar, wind and hydro energy was around for decades, and the means for extracting that energy also, but the biggest one of them all is geothermal energy, which is simply a source of unlimited, clean power. The only reason we still have to pay ridiculous power bills and inhale smoke from coal or gas plants and fear nuclear power is because it's profitable. A geothermal power plant costs a huge amount of money and won't turn much profit when people realize the energy from that plant is totally free. The same goes for solar plants, wind power and all form of hydro power (tidal, wave power). The only thing keeping us from going totally green is profit.

Yes, we will run out of oil sooner than we think. How fortunate, that we had the electric car for a decade, that was better in every way than the gas-guzzling SUVs. EnterGMs EV1. It used less power, had better acceleration and high-speed, it was totally quiet, had the most advanced technology built-in, required less maintenance and was cheaper in the long run, and produced absolutely no emissions whatsoever. But the project got nuked, because of oil interests. Figures.



If geothermal energy were cheaper, it would be more profitable than petroleum, because you could sell a unit of geothermal energy for a nickel cheaper than the corresponding petroleum product, and people would still buy it even if they were overpaying. The reason we don't go green isn't just profit, it's cost. Oil and gas are cheaper and more convenient than any other source of energy we have right now. If it were cheaper to put a solar panel on your house instead of a propane tank, someone would have done it by now, but it's now. The reason we haven't gone to geothermal energy is because while it is very efficient where it can be produced, it can only be produced on tectonic plate boundaries, and, unlike oil and gas, it is not easily transported. I live thousands of miles away from any such place, so the cost of transporting the energy to me makes geothermal power significantly more expensive than petroleum.

Eventually, though, renewable energy will be cheaper than petroleum. Probably not within the next several decades, but it's not like we're hurtling towards an energy apocalypse where the CEO of ExxonChevronShell watches in horror as the last drop of oil is taken from the last reservoir before the Earth descends into post-energy-crisis doom. It's more like one day you'll decide to use some new form of energy to heat your house, because it's cheaper. Then you'll buy a car that doesn't run on petroleum, because it's cheaper. Then they'll make jet fuel out of something other than hydrocarbons, because it's cheaper. And eventually, petroleum will be confined to specialty markets, like plastic production, instead of being our main source of energy.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 10:22 am

I completely agree with ajohnfp in that the original essay is a massive over simplification of the problem. I'd also like to add that it annoys me a lot when people do this to try to appear to be a 'rational' or 'objective' voice.

I also agree with ajohnfp other section. The world runs on a free market economy, as soon as oil supplies start to dwindle (this wont happen overnight) then the alternatives will become more economical, as those alternatives jostle for market share their real cost will reduce as well as their relative cost.

The major problem that I have with this is that it essentially means that all or at least most available carbon will be realised into the atmosphere, enhancing the greenhouse effect to its maximum potential. I have a lot less faith in a free market system to adapt to the changes caused by that then the changes caused by reduced fossil fuel supply.

Another thing I would like to say is that I agree completely with what David Wong was saying about how regulation is the only form of environmental protection, with the example given as over fishing. I know there is a huge amount of pressure to produce results that will approve development (we call them False Negatives) and there are statisticians (all environmental science is based on statistics) that are professionals at playing with numbers and statistical tests to alter results enough to look like anything you want. The point i'm trying to get across is that 1. comapanies are essentially assholes and will get away with whatever they can and 2. if something is 'science' and published it doesnt necessarily mean that it is correct.

I am probably also biased, I am currently studying environmental engineering and have a degree in environmental biology, i've also worked in the field for about 2 years... so you spend that length of time studying and working with environmentalists, it rubs off.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 11:00 am

College Binary wrote:
To compare environmentalism to religion isn't necessarily a tactic through which to dismiss it as nonsense. A Christian can be aware that he/she is a member of a religion and still believe that the religion is true. It's just calling a spade a spade.


Except that the vast majority of evidence indicates that global warming is a substantial problem we need to tackle, whereas no nonspiritual evidence indicates that hell is a substantial problem we need to tackle.  Because of that, behavior that would be totally reprehensible to solve the problem of hell -- fining people who don't go to church, say -- would be completely acceptable in the context of global warming -- fining people who produce CO2

Likewise, we should be very quick to challenge global warming deniers in a way that's just unnecessary for hell-deniers.  I can't prove to anyone that hell exists, so I don't really have much to say to a guy who thinks it doesn't.  But anyone who thinks the evidence indicates that global warming doesn't exist is probably wrong, and he better be ready to vigorously and continuously defend his beliefs publicly, just like anyone else who believes something that is probably wrong.  Get on the nightly news and announce that we should be shifting trillions of dollars towards building rocketships because the theory of relativity is all bunk and you're going to elicit some fierce denials.  More troubling in the global warming context, the people going against the mainstream are not only probably wrong but also have fans numbering in the millions, filled to the brim with people who are desperately clinging to probably wrong world without having sufficiently examined the issue (not that absolutely everyone who has examined the data believes in anthropogenic global warming).  So he shouldn't just be vigorously debated, he should be vigorously and mercilessly debated.  Because a global-warming denier is probably wrong, because many people will cling to any shred of reasoning to convince themselves that global warming isn't a significant problem, and because tons of human happiness is on the line, a global warming denier should get treatment in the realm of public discourse that would be completely rude to throw at a hell denier (who is not probably wrong). 

Not that I totally disagree with you.  It's obvious that people can go too far with environmentalism.  It's just that people can go too far with anything.  Echo chambers and demonizing opponents is just an artifact of getting humans together into different groups, it's not a distinguishing characteristic of religion.  And things that are characteristic of religion -- the upfront recognition that belief provides a route to certainty, the possibility of a value system that focuses on something other than the material world, ritual -- don't strike me as being particularly prominent either in the environmentalist movement or amongst it's opponents. 
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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 12:33 pm

a global warming denier should get treatment in the realm of public discourse that would be completely rude to throw at a hell denier (who is not probably wrong). 


if by rude you mean humiliating, mocking or disrespecting someone for thinking differently (whether he is astonishingly wrong or not) then i'm afraid it's going to be counterproductive for your cause, i agree in "vigorously and mercilessly" debating someone, but the moment that respect is lost is the moment the discussion is lost too.

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Re: Environmentalism vs Economics

Fri May 15, 2009 1:09 pm

Playbahnosh wrote:
We have sustainable sources of enery, in fact, we had for decades, and the means of using it too. Solar, wind and hydro energy was around for decades, and the means for extracting that energy also, but the biggest one of them all is geothermal energy, which is simply a source of unlimited, clean power.


Actually, all of the sources of energy listed here have problems. ajohnfp already listed geothermal's location problem, but it also runs afoul of all the problems that plague mines - trying to find a location is expensive and uncertain, a vent can suddenly stop working after a few years, and drilling can release dangerous gases trapped under the earth. It also appears that geothermal plants may increase the number and severity of of earthquakes in an area.

The processes needed to create solar panels are toxic and energy intensive, to the point that in some cases coal is cleaner. And unless used in places where it is truly efficient it can't be called 'free' either - the amount of electricity gained over it's life time won't pay for it's installation price. And solar power plants need to take up a huge amount of area - even more land that needs to be developed. 'Barren' deserts may seem tempting for this purpose may seem tempting, but installing there can play havoc on the ecosystem (IMO this is a fair trade off so long as a certain amount is left wild, but it's important to remember that the trade off is there).

Wind turbines can be deadly to flying creatures, particularly bats. It's also been shown that they could change the weather; as things stand this would probably be pretty minor, but it's something that needs to be monitored. Overall though, wind power seems to be pretty good, the biggest problem is that it's location dependant, unreliable, and relatively inefficient.

Hydro powerplants are ecological nightmares. They completely change the flow of water in an area, drying out swamps and flooding forests, essentially destroying ecosystems. They're also horrible for fish stocks (less because they kill fish directly, more because they dry out spawning streams and pose difficult barriers to fish trying to get back to their spawning areas). Personally I am opposed to further wide spread development of this energy, IMO nuclear does less damage.

Now, some of these problems may be fixed as technology improves. But IMO the veneration reserved on some of these methods does verge on religious - everything has trade offs.

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